Forum Replies Created
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In reply to: Buddypress needs to STOP supporting bbPress
@dennis_h, amen, preach it brother!
Yes, forums are very useful and popular, but they are just another way of displaying a conversation. The basic building blocks for blogs, forums or social networks are the same:
users
posts
commentsIf you want a traditional forum view, you could probably create that in your theme.
There is no reason to bolt an external forum script on to Buddypress, with its own database tables etc. It only creates synchronization problems and confusion for the end user.
I have argued this before here and elsewhere.
@3sixty (“The irony of “BuddyPress shouldn’t be about forums”, and “if you want a forum, don’t use BP” and “bbPress is a parasite in BP…” is that the FORUM is the center point of activity here on buddypress.org”)
There’s nothing ironic about that. Traditional forums are very useful, but if you want a traditional forum you can install PunBB or bbPress. The point is that bolting a forum onto a social network derails the social networking structure. Mixing forum and social networking is the cause of a lot of the confusion and interface problems that this thread is about.
Social networking sites (Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) imho evolved from traditional forums; they are a next generation paradigm in how to structure a web community, with more emphasis on individual members, less on forum topics. That’s also why I keep complaining about anonymous usernames and the underdeveloped member management in BP.
It has been depressing to see in recent months that people who primarily want a traditional forum are taking over Buddypress, pushing it back into the older forms. Mixing these different approaches to structuring a community does not make it a more versatile product. It’s the kitchen sink. It’s becomes an unwieldy mess.
As explained earlier in this thread, you can get forum-like functionality following existing Buddypress/Wordpress structures. You can display blog posts and comments in a forum structure. You could probably do it in a template. There is absolutely no need to bolt on an external forum, adding new database tables and functionality that partly overlaps/clashes with existing functionality.
Automattic needs to go back to the basic building blocks – users, posts, comments – and make sure they are solid, remove redundancies etc. And then develop different ways to connect those elements and display the data in different user interfaces; blog, social network, forum, microblogging, social bookmarking, etc.
@stwc (“My great worry these days is that the dev community is being compelled to fix problems with usability of core BP, as much or more so than extending what’s there.”)
That is my hope. Don’t extend. Fix problems first.
@Scotm (“Give me a P2 groupblog with a cleaned up groups feature and BuddyPress is relevant again…”)
That’s kinda where I’m trying to get to. Marius Ooms as well. One of my frustrations is that I can’t figure out how to put the ‘group blog home’ on the ‘group home’ page itself without breaking the Ajax. The connection between group and group blog is very unclear. Still need to work on that… Also managing all the different settings is unwieldy. This plugin helps, but it would be nice if it all was part of the core, integrated with better management.
I use it on Web2NewYork.com. You’d have to register to test it, which you’re welcome to do. The site is mostly for event registration. Members so far ignore the blog/group/posting features…
@jivany (“I don’t understand your BP forum complaints. You don’t use forums because you have basically replicated the forum concept in blog posts/comments”)
Exactly! My point is that integrating an external forum like bbPress into Buddypress is unnecessary and only creates a lot of confusion, undermines the structure. Less is more. KISS.
I would like Buddypress to consolidate on the smallest number of parts, leverage what’s already in WordPress, instead of adding database tables and external scripts that partly overlap/clash with other parts.
But bbPress seems to be taking over Buddypress. Wrong direction imho.
@jivany (“On a typical WP installation, blog posts are written by site owners and/or their chosen authors. This means only certain selected groups of people can start a new discussion point/thread. Forums typically allow everyone to start a new discussion and have their peers comment on that topic.”)
I use Marius Ooms groupblog plugin in a custom theme with P2 front-end posting. Group members are automatically added as blog authors, so they can all post on the group blog and comment on what other group members have posted, in threaded comments with hide/show toggle. They can post short Twitter-like ‘status updates’ or full blog posts.
@stwc, the collaboration point came from Sadr. Why would it be low on the list?
Defining ‘Community’, ‘Forum’, ‘Social network’ was discussed a bit earlier in the thread. My attempt is included here. We probably need to delineate better what we’re talking about.
@stwc, OK, your argument was irrelevant nonsense. Better?
@stwc, can you answer the question, what makes forums so great for collaboration? What can you do with forums that you can’t do with blog posts + comments?
“Every time I interact with you, you immediately start insulting me. I don’t know why I bother.”
Only because you insulted me first. (“That’s the single most ridiculous thing I’ve read on this forum yet.” etc.)
@Sadr (“I see immense potential in BuddyPress as an open collaboration platform. I do believe though that traditional social networks do not encourage collaboration, maybe continuity in particular, well enough, and so there’s a lot to learn or borrow from other systems more commonly used in that context.”)
I agree Buddypress has great potential as a collaboration platform, but the natural focus point for that collaboration would be groups where members would come together and share content using blog posts+comments, WP’s native way of organizing content.
Why would you need forums? What makes forums so great for collaboration?
Groups could be Buddypress killer app. Buddypress could be a next generation social network because it would be more content-centric, thanks to its WordPress roots. Forums only distract from what could be a very logical conceptual approach.
@stwc (“People get so attached to their meaningless buzzwords they forget that the whole idea is to serve the needs of actual users … Abandoning a tried, tested, and true form of internet community interaction because of some quixotic quest to be modern and social-networky …”)
If you can’t tell the conceptual difference between a forum and a social network, this discussion is wasted on you.
@r-a-y, I didn’t say you did. I compared bbPress to a parasite as in a foreign organism that weakens the host (“… mold BuddyPress into a more forum-like environment …”). First step to heal Buddypress is to remove the parasite.
Edit: @r-a-y (“This inferred that I believed bbPress was a parasite”) No it doesn’t. WTF?! I’m not even picking a fight with you, just trying to clearly state my arguments about where BP should go.
@Sadr (“I believe social networks can be the next generation of collaborative forums”) They shouldn’t be. Social networks (Facebook, LinkedIn) are a newer way to do some of the same things forums used to do. Forcing them back into the classic forum mold only ruins what makes them work. They are different conceptual approaches/paradigms. You can’t just mix them.
@r-a-y, this sounds pretty parasitic to me:
“… it should be possible (and rather effortless at that) to mold BuddyPress into a more forum-like environment …”
bbPress is a parasite that is killing Buddypress from within. Buddypress should have been a next-generation social network, instead it is becoming a messy backward forum/social network hybrid.
@r-a-y (“but not his tone!”), sugarcoating is what got Buddypress to this point. Noone (at Automattic) is making any hard choices. BP tries to be all things to all people.
Mike Pratt said 1 day ago:
“@peterverkooijen @hnla I take the other side of your “little diff b/t blogs and forums” opinion. To me, a blog post is a significantly more “deliberate” piece of content … For ex, we have a group called the “12th Man Training Table” which centers on athlete nutrition. Folks want to post recipes for training means. Clearly, forum topics are the wrong vehicle. On the other hand, there are raging debates in that group that definitely belong in the forum construct..not a blog post with comments … So Peter, please keep in mind that what you would do to BP would build a BP that works for Peter, but it’s not necessarily the only use case around, that’s all.”
Mike Pratt, you miss the point. I’m talking about how the script and database is structured, not what you as a user should do with it. Functionally a blog post and a forum topic are the same thing; a piece of content that others can comment on. Similarly there only needs to be one way to store (threaded) comments. There is no need to duplicate that in forum thread, wires, etc. There is no need to have variations of posts and comments in different places in the database.
I’m talking about taking redundancies out, boiling down the architecture to the lowest number of necessary parts, less is more, keep it simple stupid. That does not mean you as a user will have less options. WP blog posts already provides many ways to make very different types of posts. In my P2-based custom theme I have started making a clear distinction between ‘status updates’ and ‘blog posts’ using categories. Apparently WP 3.0 will have more sophisticated hooks to do different things with different types of content.
Same for comments. There are already lots of different things you can do with comments, from IntenseDebate and other plugins to built-in threaded options, inline Ajax commenting and styling possibilities via your theme. Buddypress should leverage basic WordPress building blocks as much as possible instead of adding new database tables and third scripts like BBpress. Ultimately a lot of this is for the theme developers to develop. They could develop out-of-the-box themes for different use cases; schools, companies, sport clubs, etc. BP should focus on a solid core and flexible API.
hnla said: “quick question, regarding the aspect of group blogs and group forums is there really a difference?”
No, there isn’t. That’s why I would consolidate everything on blog posts (no forum topics, status updates, etc.) and threaded comments (no wire etc.), the native WordPress way of structuring conversation. And then you can use Category and other built-in post options to differentiate between types of posts+threads and do different things with them.
“Defining a Social Network / Community”
At the core is a relational database with member data and content that is then presented and connected in different ways on the user interface.
Online community is an older term that usually referred to forums. Organization of the data is mainly by topic/content.
Social networking evolved from forums. Profile pages of the users came to the fore. Central point of organization became individual members.
WordPress’ strength is still content management. Member management in WP is underdeveloped for social networking.
My 2 cents: In my custom theme I try to consolidate everything around blogs and groups. I’m still on 1.1.3.
Blogs are of course WordPress strength. I’m trying to get to a social network with a greater emphasis on content, where possible via RSS and with front-end posting on blogs and groups to lower the threshold.
For the social networking aspect I need profile pages for members and some ways for members to interact with eachother, via internal mail, friending/following, joining eachothers groups and blogs.
Groups are Buddypress’ killer app imho. Buddypress has the potential to become a real collaboration platform around content, with endless real world applications in businesses, organizations and associations.
Buddypress has all the basic elements to achieve this, but the following are still huge annoyances and don’t look like they will be fixed any time soon:
– Member management is all over the place, in different pages under wp-admin, different database tables and different places on the front-end. Adding custom member data fields and integrating them with outside applications is complicated and inflexible. By design (!) there is no built-in way to reliably store separate firstname and lastname, which makes out-of-the-box BP useless for most businesses and organizations. There is little validation on sign-up form fields.
– No built-in privacy/security.
– Built-in forums are increasingly clashing with commenting on blogs and wires and the social networking structure. There is no reason to have old-fashioned forums in a next generation social network. You might as well integrate a WELL-style bulletin board system. Having a single sign-in option for people who want to use a forum on the side is great, but please stop weaving forums into Buddypress.
What Buddypress needs imho:
1. Consolidated member management; all member data stored in one place in the database, one page in wp-admin, one member profile page with “edit account settings” on the front end.
2. Content-focused member profile pages. Members should be able to use their profiles to introduce themselves and showcase their blogs and groups.
3. Conversation around blog posts and (threaded) blog comments, ideally with front-end posting like P2. There is no reason to have blog posts AND forum topics AND wire or whatever it’s called. Group blog should be a built-in feature.
4. End-user-friendly control over their groups and blogs, including privacy/security and front-end admin.
Summary:
– Members
– Blog posts
– Threaded commentsPresented in:
– Profile pages
– Blogs
– Groups@hnla, yes, absolutely worthy discussing UI in a dedicated thread. My point was that it is not just UI.
@Paul Gibbs, the problem is beyond UI. Buddypress/Automattic needs to make some real architectural choices, stop piling on functionality on existing functionality that partly overlaps, looks all very similar to the end user, but isn’t synchronized/streamlined. Your explanation of the differences between groups, forums, comments etc. in #post-51655 is irrelevant to the end user.
Mixing old-fashioned forums + WordPress classic blogs/comments + newer forms of social networking/activity wires is a recipe for disaster imho. Unless perhaps if you rethink and restructure the whole thing from the bottom up, but if Automattic is not doing that it is not going to happen and will only get worse.
Mr Maz (?) API discussion was a definite step in the right direction!
“Try telling your opinion without personal attacks”
It’s not a personal attack, just an attempt to inject some realism. Andy Peatling is obviously a brilliant PHP programmer, but he is the only one Automattic pays to work on Buddypress. So Buddypress is like his solo project. Usually software is a collaboration between business requirements, programmers, interaction designers, graphic designers, copy writers, marketing, project manager, etc. See also semi-competitors of BP like SocialEngine. In Buddypress the priorities seem out of whack.I’m not going to make any friends in here anyway, so I’ll say what others won’t: Andy Peatling is a PHP programmer, not an (interface) designer. This redesign is cluttered, hard to use. I see groups, forums, topics, community, support. I have no clue what’s what. Automattic should focus on core functionality (member management, security, privacy, spam, etc.), take out redundancies (less is more), separate script from layout as much as possible and leave design to theme developers.
In reply to: Profile FieldsWP, WPMU and BP each have their own member admin areas, both frontend and backend, and data tables in MySQL, some of them synced, most not. Member management is an afterthought for Automattic. Hopefully it will be fixed in 3.0.
In reply to: xprofile vs usermeta syncing problems@Andy Peatling, so version 1.2 does sync separate firstname and lastname from the xprofile field to the fields in wp_usermeta?
I will upgrade when WP 3.0 is out, probably this Summer when my day job work is slow. I have a custom theme. It will be a complicated operation.
That being said, I don’t think its fair to make a blanket like “BP php is extremely inefficient” without qualifying it.
This could be an example of what dennis_h is talking about?
For me it goes back to the point that development now should focus on making the core rock solid, including security, privacy, member management, etc., before adding any more features.
In reply to: Gravatar redirect chains cause too much load timeAs for debugging load times, you need to use tools like YSlow, Google Page Speed, or the built in page load timers in Firebug (Net) or Safari Developer Tools.
I’ve used a few of these. That’s how I found out. Already made lots of improvements, but the gravatar issue is one thing I have no control over. Don’t want to ditch gravatar either though.
Considering the relationship between BP, WP, Gravatar and Automattic, this topic is not going to get the answer you’re looking for.
All the more reason for Automattic to fix this. They can start with your suggestions.
What is BuddyPress?
An open source script for blog-centric private social networks.
Potentially a next-generation social network, starting from the best elements of Facebook and Twitter, but more suited to content (blogs) and collaboration (groups).
Less is more! I don’t expect social networking in a box. There are already several commercial products that serve that need better. I’d like to see a solid, stripped down core with a flexible API that a developer community can build on.
