BuddyPress.org

Member management in WPMU/Buddypress seems patchy as hell to me, with member data spread out over several database tables that aren’t synchronized between xprofile and wpmu, mixing different methods to store data. The registration process is horribly inflexible. Basic things like styling the registration form or editing system emails require hacking core files.

Not sure if this would have been better if WordPress/Buddypress followed an MVC architecture. Wikipedia’s description of MVC:

Model-view-controller (MVC) … isolates business logic from the user interface, permitting one to be freely modified without affecting the other. The controller collects user input, the model manipulates application data, and the view presents results to the user …

I like the sound of “isolating business logic”. I want the end user functionality that WPMU/BP provides (“… WordPress’s usability …”), but have serious concerns about having to rely on WPMU/BP for central member management and registration, the foundation of my project. Unfortunately I can’t have one without the other.

Please don’t dismiss the criticism.

if there’s someone moaning about how any particular bit of software is not written following MVC, they have two options – write their own, or shut up.

They did. They are developing Anahita Social Engine on Joomla. I may have to check it out.

I should also mention I was at this presentation, and BuddyPress was not mentioned for the slide in question. They repeated numerous times that BuddyPress was an exception and was actually a source of inspiration for their project.

Here we go with MVC is the only approach. Having used the Codeigniter and Kohana PHP frameworks in the past, I know a little something about MVC.

MVC is a design principle that various frameworks implement so that others can then create their applications. WordPress is an application that offers a means to extended its functionality. It is not a framework. A framework is not an application. You create, code, applications (like WordPress) using various tools. A framework is just one of those tools.

I agree, from a plugin developer’s standpoint, that it might have been nice if WordPress had used a solid MVC framework with which to build its foundation. But, I don’t think there were any good MVC framework options at the time it was initially being developed. It would also be nice if WP were fully object based. But, this is all a moot point.

WordPress is and will be fine in its current state. There will not be issues “down the road”. Why?Because WordPress continues to improve and evolve (look at the powerful BuddyPress layer). It has been doing so for 6 years without reaching a point were it ceases to work.

As Paul said, since this is an open source project, anyone is free to fork it. WordPress, in fact, is a fork of another, older blogging system. So, if you don’t like what’s under the hood, then change away and create your own CMS!

It is interesting that the author of that slideshare fails to mention that Joomla, the application that their Anahita Social Engine requires, in not an MVC framework. Remember, Joomla is also an application, not a framework. A separate module/extension had to be created to offer some MVC-like functionality to those who wish to further extend Joomla in a manner somewhat reminiscent of a true MVC framework.

In my opinion, if WordPress were to be recoded from the ground up using one of the various PHP-based MVC frameworks, it would result in an application that while possibly being easier to create plugins for, would make it much harder for designers to create themes. This would make it harder for the average user to use.

Ha!

Andy, that’s basically what I said in my last paragraph!

There is no easy fix for ignorance. Clients will generally believe what they want to believe. I guess it’s everyone’s job here to build great sites using WP/BP… so get going!

Since my opinion counts too, I’m going to jump into the fray…

The reason why people like WordPress, is because it unknowingly found the PERFECT balance of challenge, and ease of use. In order to become proficient at using WordPress as a development tool, you have to go through a rigorous 6 month hazing period of being totally lost in the code. Not because it’s badly written, or sloppy, but because it’s just a lot to learn.

You know why people that join fraternities rarely ever leave? Because once you’ve gone through the hazing, you’re more likely to stay. You know how businesses earn repeat clients? They charge MORE money, because people are more likely to go back to a place they’ve already invested money into, rather than a place that gave them a $15 oil change. Strange eh? Make things too easy, and people won’t go back. Make it too hard, and they won’t even try it in the first place. There’s a balance, and WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress found it.

Once you learn it though, it’s like driving a 6 speed manual trans; you just glide through the gears without really even thinking about it. It’s like learning to juggle; or play baseball; or ride a bike. You just do it naturally.

My experience with things written with strict coding standards is that no one ever appreciates the time spent adhering to those standards anyways, and the codebase is basically ignored. phpBB is a great example, because the code is dead simple to use and understand, but how many people do you hear about using it to its full potential?

I used to code every single website I did to section 508 compliance. You know how many clients cared? 0. So, now I don’t. Haha!

WordPress, BuddyPress, and bbPress make you earn your keep. They are investments in time, energy, and they actually can give you back what you put in. Not EVERYONE can sit down and develop a good plugin for any of the platforms, but LOTS of awesome plugins are possible and with a little time, anyone can sit down and write one. Anyone can develop a theme with a little effort. WordPress works for everyone, not just newbies and not just professionals.

I can’t predict what tomorrow will bring. Maybe something will come along and totally blow the doors off of anything we could develop ourselves. That’s okay. But for right now, I don’t think there’s anything better than what WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress bring to the table.

Of course not, that wasn’t my point. The registration functionality in WPMU is quite restrictive and cumbersome right now. That will improve though. If you’re concerned about this, then don’t consider BuddyPress as we’re only on version 1.0.

I was going to take the gamble that it would improve over time. Hearing most developers here dismissing any architectural criticism and only singing the praises of WordPress is not encouraging though.

You know why people that join fraternities rarely ever leave? Because once you’ve gone through the hazing, you’re more likely to stay.

Right, once you’ve decided on a platform it’s very hard to go anywhere else. You’re stuck.

Every couple of years I reevaluate what to use for my websites. I started on Nucleus. The current version of my project Web2NewYork is built on WordPress with a members registration system based on code taken from PunBB.

I switched to WordPress reluctantly only because it was becoming the standard. I’m now trying to consolidate on Buddypress, if I can everything working before September. If member management/registration does not improve I will have to switch to something else next year.

So we should all be enormously grateful for that. I don’t think threats to move another platform are really productive.

I am grateful and Buddypress developers wouldn’t care whether I move to another platform or not. I was responding to John James Jacoby’s argument that people stick with WordPress because it has found the right balance.

WordPress is evolving from blog software to a social networking platform with Buddypress. That puts the user at the center, which is a fundamental shift in focus. That’s why I keep hammering on member management and registration.

I love the extensibility of WordPress/Buddypress, but if the foundation – member management – is a mess, that is a real problem that can force people to consider other options. I have not found good alternatives. Anahita Social Engine on Joomla could be one to watch.

Hi @andy

you said

Also – something to consider. If WordPress was completely object-oriented, fully MVC, and the most beautifully designed code imaginable – 90% of developers would not be able to understand it.

would you please tell me when you say 90% of developers who exactly are you referring to ? because I know there are projects like Ruby on Rails that have had a good turned out between developers even though they implement lots of design patterns like MVC, Active Record and so on.

Also this does not stop at only open source projects, iPhone development framework (cocoa) follows MVC ( and other design patterns) and now there are kids as young as 10 years old that are developing for this platform.

Also I understand this debate is about MVC vs non-MVC design pattern but I would like to point out that a framework is not just MVC. It’s a collection of many design patterns as significant as MVC that helps the developers to build something in shorter amount of time.

in Anahita, MVC constitutes the overall structure of the application, but in a closer look, we are using other design patterns that makes the code smaller and more flexible. Without them, I doubt having an MVC architecture would have made that much of a difference.

Thank you,