BuddyPress.org

Since my opinion counts too, I’m going to jump into the fray…

The reason why people like WordPress, is because it unknowingly found the PERFECT balance of challenge, and ease of use. In order to become proficient at using WordPress as a development tool, you have to go through a rigorous 6 month hazing period of being totally lost in the code. Not because it’s badly written, or sloppy, but because it’s just a lot to learn.

You know why people that join fraternities rarely ever leave? Because once you’ve gone through the hazing, you’re more likely to stay. You know how businesses earn repeat clients? They charge MORE money, because people are more likely to go back to a place they’ve already invested money into, rather than a place that gave them a $15 oil change. Strange eh? Make things too easy, and people won’t go back. Make it too hard, and they won’t even try it in the first place. There’s a balance, and WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress found it.

Once you learn it though, it’s like driving a 6 speed manual trans; you just glide through the gears without really even thinking about it. It’s like learning to juggle; or play baseball; or ride a bike. You just do it naturally.

My experience with things written with strict coding standards is that no one ever appreciates the time spent adhering to those standards anyways, and the codebase is basically ignored. phpBB is a great example, because the code is dead simple to use and understand, but how many people do you hear about using it to its full potential?

I used to code every single website I did to section 508 compliance. You know how many clients cared? 0. So, now I don’t. Haha!

WordPress, BuddyPress, and bbPress make you earn your keep. They are investments in time, energy, and they actually can give you back what you put in. Not EVERYONE can sit down and develop a good plugin for any of the platforms, but LOTS of awesome plugins are possible and with a little time, anyone can sit down and write one. Anyone can develop a theme with a little effort. WordPress works for everyone, not just newbies and not just professionals.

I can’t predict what tomorrow will bring. Maybe something will come along and totally blow the doors off of anything we could develop ourselves. That’s okay. But for right now, I don’t think there’s anything better than what WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress bring to the table.

If you are concerned with the way WordPress is programmed, then I would asses the value in being concerned. Look at the number of themes, look at the number of plugins, look at the number of users. Look at the companies that use WordPress. At what point does worrying about the coding style become moot?

That’s why I chose to build my new site on Buddypress. Does that mean I have to keep my mouth shut about the crappy patched together membership management mess that will now become the foundation of my project? It’s not a moot point. It’s a painful trade-off and if I could start over I’d probably give Joomla + Anahita Social Engine a go.

I’m perfectly entitled to not pay attention to the MVC-or-not structure of both WordPress and Buddypress, as I don’t work for Automattic and I’m not a core developer on either.

I was addressing the Buddypress development community in general.

There is no easy fix for ignorance. Clients will generally believe what they want to believe. I guess it’s everyone’s job here to build great sites using WP/BP… so get going!

Ha!

Andy, that’s basically what I said in my last paragraph!

Also – something to consider. If WordPress was completely object-oriented, fully MVC, and the most beautifully designed code imaginable – 90% of developers would not be able to understand it.

When trying to create a popular open source application you have to strike a fine balance with regards to entry level. You don’t want to make it so beautifully abstract and complex that only the level 70 geeks can develop on it.

Your application needs those people that program in their spare time for fun, but don’t necessary know what instantiation, encapsulation and polymorphism are. Those people are the most important if you want any sort of active developer community.

Here we go with MVC is the only approach. Having used the Codeigniter and Kohana PHP frameworks in the past, I know a little something about MVC.

MVC is a design principle that various frameworks implement so that others can then create their applications. WordPress is an application that offers a means to extended its functionality. It is not a framework. A framework is not an application. You create, code, applications (like WordPress) using various tools. A framework is just one of those tools.

I agree, from a plugin developer’s standpoint, that it might have been nice if WordPress had used a solid MVC framework with which to build its foundation. But, I don’t think there were any good MVC framework options at the time it was initially being developed. It would also be nice if WP were fully object based. But, this is all a moot point.

WordPress is and will be fine in its current state. There will not be issues “down the road”. Why?Because WordPress continues to improve and evolve (look at the powerful BuddyPress layer). It has been doing so for 6 years without reaching a point were it ceases to work.

As Paul said, since this is an open source project, anyone is free to fork it. WordPress, in fact, is a fork of another, older blogging system. So, if you don’t like what’s under the hood, then change away and create your own CMS!

It is interesting that the author of that slideshare fails to mention that Joomla, the application that their Anahita Social Engine requires, in not an MVC framework. Remember, Joomla is also an application, not a framework. A separate module/extension had to be created to offer some MVC-like functionality to those who wish to further extend Joomla in a manner somewhat reminiscent of a true MVC framework.

In my opinion, if WordPress were to be recoded from the ground up using one of the various PHP-based MVC frameworks, it would result in an application that while possibly being easier to create plugins for, would make it much harder for designers to create themes. This would make it harder for the average user to use.

I should also mention I was at this presentation, and BuddyPress was not mentioned for the slide in question. They repeated numerous times that BuddyPress was an exception and was actually a source of inspiration for their project.

You can take MVC however you like. If you are going to take it in a black and white sense then BuddyPress is not MVC. However, it follows a loose MVC style:

1. bp-[component]-classes.php contains all of the database access classes [ Modal ]

2. /bp-themes/[themename]/ contains all of the template files [ View ]

3. bp-[component].php contains all of the business functions [ Controller ]

BuddyPress is certainly not programmed top-down. In fact, if you try and program top-down with BuddyPress you will quickly become frustrated.

If you are concerned with the way WordPress is programmed, then I would asses the value in being concerned. Look at the number of themes, look at the number of plugins, look at the number of users. Look at the companies that use WordPress. At what point does worrying about the coding style become moot?

At the end of the day MVC is just another coding methodology, it is not “the right way” to program. The right way to program is subjective and very much based on your program’s function, audience and ideologies.

I’m perfectly entitled to not pay attention to the MVC-or-not structure of both WordPress and Buddypress, as I don’t work for Automattic and I’m not a core developer on either.

Member management in WPMU/Buddypress seems patchy as hell to me, with member data spread out over several database tables that aren’t synchronized between xprofile and wpmu, mixing different methods to store data. The registration process is horribly inflexible. Basic things like styling the registration form or editing system emails require hacking core files.

Not sure if this would have been better if WordPress/Buddypress followed an MVC architecture. Wikipedia’s description of MVC:

Model-view-controller (MVC) … isolates business logic from the user interface, permitting one to be freely modified without affecting the other. The controller collects user input, the model manipulates application data, and the view presents results to the user …

I like the sound of “isolating business logic”. I want the end user functionality that WPMU/BP provides (“… WordPress’s usability …”), but have serious concerns about having to rely on WPMU/BP for central member management and registration, the foundation of my project. Unfortunately I can’t have one without the other.

Please don’t dismiss the criticism.

if there’s someone moaning about how any particular bit of software is not written following MVC, they have two options – write their own, or shut up.

They did. They are developing Anahita Social Engine on Joomla. I may have to check it out.

In my opinion – not aiming this at you – if there’s someone moaning about how any particular bit of software is not written following MVC, they have two options – write their own, or shut up.

BuddyPress isn’t going to be any more “patchy” than WordPress is. I’m not even sure what you are trying to imply by “patch job”, either.

Question regarding integration of bbPress 1.01 + WPMU 2.8.1 beta + BuddyPress 1.0.2

Will there be any steps that can be eliminated with the above integration steps with new release of 2.8.1 beta?

I’ve since uploaded everything again and it’s working – second time this has happened – I have NO idea what was wrong!

Alex

I’ve installed WPMU trunk via SVN and all is well.

Then I install BuddyPress via the shell ‘wget’ method, and placed the plugin and theme files in the correct locations:

/wp-content/plugins/buddypress

/wp-content/themes/bphome

/wp-content/bp-themes

I can activate BuddyPress, but when I go to the /members page for example, I am given:

You do not have any BuddyPress themes installed.

Please move “/wp-content/plugins/buddypress/bp-themes/” to “/wp-content/bp-themes/” and refresh this page. You can download more themes here.

When I visit the wp-admin/admin.php?page=bp-core.php page, the dropdown of themes to select gives me the default WPMU themes – not the BP themes.

Here are some details about my setup:

1. Which version of WPMU are you running?

– 2.8.1-RC1

2. Did you install WPMU as a directory or subdomain install?

– Subdomain

3. If a directory install, is it in root or in a subdirectory?

– NA

4. Did you upgraded from a previous version of WPMU? If so, from which version?

– No, fresh install

5. Was WPMU functioning properly before installing/upgrading BuddyPress?

– Yes

6. Which version of BuddyPress (BP) are you running?

– 1.0.2

7. Did you upgraded from a previous version of BP? If so, from which version?

– No, fresh install

8. Do you have any plugins other than BuddyPress installed and activated?

– No

9. Are you using the standard BuddyPress themes or customized themes?

– Standard, for now

10. Have you modified the core files in any way?

– No

11. Do you have any custom functions in bp-custom.php?

– No

12. If running bbPress, which version?

– Not running, yet

13. Please provide a list of any errors in your server’s log files.

– No errors

There is nothing mysterious about this problem. It occurs when bp is not activated and you launch the home theme. The home theme’s functions.php runs it gets to the first bit of code that requires a bp global BP_PLUGIN_DIR and crashes.

Does bp live in /wp-content/plugins/buddypress? (not /mu-plugins)?

Have you activated bp sitewide?

Does it activate properly?

This error began cropping up initially way back when bp moved from /mu-plugins to /plugins. There were also errors like this when bp was not in the dir /buddypress and couldn’t activate properly.

This is not a bug. It’s a config/install issue.

This is the post I meant:

https://buddypress.org/forums/topic/minimal-groups-forums-members-and-blogs-lists

Try using the loops.

https://codex.buddypress.org/developer-docs/custom-buddypress-loops/the-site-members-loop/

Try using the forum search:

https://buddypress.org/forums/search.php?q=member+list

Sorry, but I do not know how to implement this, I do not code myself.

There´s also an old post by Burt, will try to find it

“I suspect this will be less of a BuddyPress thing and more of a WPMU thing as it comes down the pipeline.”

Does that mean Nicola Greco’s code – “70 percent done” – will not be integrated into a future Buddypress?

Will Nicola Greco contribute the code to WPMU? Should we raise the issue at the WPMU forums?