BuddyPress.org

I’ve just done a successful upgrade, with a few minor issues which are now noted in the original post.

Link to John’s WPMU ticket regarding bbPress for reference (just if some want to refer to it):

https://trac.mu.wordpress.org/ticket/1032

I’m going to try upgrading to WPMU 2.8.1 on my testbox and see what happens as well.

You know, John, I wasn’t even thinking about the Back to the Future reference when I typed it

I think your patch made the cut, as I don’t see it in the active tickets in the MU trac.

Great scott! Just when I thought all the craziness of bbPress was done!

Of course not, that wasn’t my point. The registration functionality in WPMU is quite restrictive and cumbersome right now. That will improve though. If you’re concerned about this, then don’t consider BuddyPress as we’re only on version 1.0.

I was going to take the gamble that it would improve over time. Hearing most developers here dismissing any architectural criticism and only singing the praises of WordPress is not encouraging though.

You know why people that join fraternities rarely ever leave? Because once you’ve gone through the hazing, you’re more likely to stay.

Right, once you’ve decided on a platform it’s very hard to go anywhere else. You’re stuck.

Every couple of years I reevaluate what to use for my websites. I started on Nucleus. The current version of my project Web2NewYork is built on WordPress with a members registration system based on code taken from PunBB.

I switched to WordPress reluctantly only because it was becoming the standard. I’m now trying to consolidate on Buddypress, if I can everything working before September. If member management/registration does not improve I will have to switch to something else next year.

@thebigk, if your DB for one reason or another needs repair or optimization, the best way to do that is with a human eye and phpMyAdmin. This should rarely happen however, so you shouldn’t have problems going forward.

The suggested way of upgrading the core is to deactivate all plugins first before you press go. Otherwise those other plugins are trying to load even as WordPress hasn’t fully upgraded itself, which can cause conflicts if the tables or indexes change even slightly.

No one can answer on Nicola’s behalf, but it sounds like he’s abandoning development on this project to me, in lieu of it being a core feature eventually.

This would work not unlike the way wordpress.com allows you to map your blog to another domain. I suspect that would basically end up being this, or vice versa? That being said, it sounds like a WPMU feature that would have a piggy back panel for BuddyPress to me.

Since my opinion counts too, I’m going to jump into the fray…

The reason why people like WordPress, is because it unknowingly found the PERFECT balance of challenge, and ease of use. In order to become proficient at using WordPress as a development tool, you have to go through a rigorous 6 month hazing period of being totally lost in the code. Not because it’s badly written, or sloppy, but because it’s just a lot to learn.

You know why people that join fraternities rarely ever leave? Because once you’ve gone through the hazing, you’re more likely to stay. You know how businesses earn repeat clients? They charge MORE money, because people are more likely to go back to a place they’ve already invested money into, rather than a place that gave them a $15 oil change. Strange eh? Make things too easy, and people won’t go back. Make it too hard, and they won’t even try it in the first place. There’s a balance, and WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress found it.

Once you learn it though, it’s like driving a 6 speed manual trans; you just glide through the gears without really even thinking about it. It’s like learning to juggle; or play baseball; or ride a bike. You just do it naturally.

My experience with things written with strict coding standards is that no one ever appreciates the time spent adhering to those standards anyways, and the codebase is basically ignored. phpBB is a great example, because the code is dead simple to use and understand, but how many people do you hear about using it to its full potential?

I used to code every single website I did to section 508 compliance. You know how many clients cared? 0. So, now I don’t. Haha!

WordPress, BuddyPress, and bbPress make you earn your keep. They are investments in time, energy, and they actually can give you back what you put in. Not EVERYONE can sit down and develop a good plugin for any of the platforms, but LOTS of awesome plugins are possible and with a little time, anyone can sit down and write one. Anyone can develop a theme with a little effort. WordPress works for everyone, not just newbies and not just professionals.

I can’t predict what tomorrow will bring. Maybe something will come along and totally blow the doors off of anything we could develop ourselves. That’s okay. But for right now, I don’t think there’s anything better than what WordPress, bbPress, and BuddyPress bring to the table.

If you are concerned with the way WordPress is programmed, then I would asses the value in being concerned. Look at the number of themes, look at the number of plugins, look at the number of users. Look at the companies that use WordPress. At what point does worrying about the coding style become moot?

That’s why I chose to build my new site on Buddypress. Does that mean I have to keep my mouth shut about the crappy patched together membership management mess that will now become the foundation of my project? It’s not a moot point. It’s a painful trade-off and if I could start over I’d probably give Joomla + Anahita Social Engine a go.

I’m perfectly entitled to not pay attention to the MVC-or-not structure of both WordPress and Buddypress, as I don’t work for Automattic and I’m not a core developer on either.

I was addressing the Buddypress development community in general.

Also – something to consider. If WordPress was completely object-oriented, fully MVC, and the most beautifully designed code imaginable – 90% of developers would not be able to understand it.

When trying to create a popular open source application you have to strike a fine balance with regards to entry level. You don’t want to make it so beautifully abstract and complex that only the level 70 geeks can develop on it.

Your application needs those people that program in their spare time for fun, but don’t necessary know what instantiation, encapsulation and polymorphism are. Those people are the most important if you want any sort of active developer community.

Here we go with MVC is the only approach. Having used the Codeigniter and Kohana PHP frameworks in the past, I know a little something about MVC.

MVC is a design principle that various frameworks implement so that others can then create their applications. WordPress is an application that offers a means to extended its functionality. It is not a framework. A framework is not an application. You create, code, applications (like WordPress) using various tools. A framework is just one of those tools.

I agree, from a plugin developer’s standpoint, that it might have been nice if WordPress had used a solid MVC framework with which to build its foundation. But, I don’t think there were any good MVC framework options at the time it was initially being developed. It would also be nice if WP were fully object based. But, this is all a moot point.

WordPress is and will be fine in its current state. There will not be issues “down the road”. Why?Because WordPress continues to improve and evolve (look at the powerful BuddyPress layer). It has been doing so for 6 years without reaching a point were it ceases to work.

As Paul said, since this is an open source project, anyone is free to fork it. WordPress, in fact, is a fork of another, older blogging system. So, if you don’t like what’s under the hood, then change away and create your own CMS!

It is interesting that the author of that slideshare fails to mention that Joomla, the application that their Anahita Social Engine requires, in not an MVC framework. Remember, Joomla is also an application, not a framework. A separate module/extension had to be created to offer some MVC-like functionality to those who wish to further extend Joomla in a manner somewhat reminiscent of a true MVC framework.

In my opinion, if WordPress were to be recoded from the ground up using one of the various PHP-based MVC frameworks, it would result in an application that while possibly being easier to create plugins for, would make it much harder for designers to create themes. This would make it harder for the average user to use.

You can take MVC however you like. If you are going to take it in a black and white sense then BuddyPress is not MVC. However, it follows a loose MVC style:

1. bp-[component]-classes.php contains all of the database access classes [ Modal ]

2. /bp-themes/[themename]/ contains all of the template files [ View ]

3. bp-[component].php contains all of the business functions [ Controller ]

BuddyPress is certainly not programmed top-down. In fact, if you try and program top-down with BuddyPress you will quickly become frustrated.

If you are concerned with the way WordPress is programmed, then I would asses the value in being concerned. Look at the number of themes, look at the number of plugins, look at the number of users. Look at the companies that use WordPress. At what point does worrying about the coding style become moot?

At the end of the day MVC is just another coding methodology, it is not “the right way” to program. The right way to program is subjective and very much based on your program’s function, audience and ideologies.

I’m perfectly entitled to not pay attention to the MVC-or-not structure of both WordPress and Buddypress, as I don’t work for Automattic and I’m not a core developer on either.

Member management in WPMU/Buddypress seems patchy as hell to me, with member data spread out over several database tables that aren’t synchronized between xprofile and wpmu, mixing different methods to store data. The registration process is horribly inflexible. Basic things like styling the registration form or editing system emails require hacking core files.

Not sure if this would have been better if WordPress/Buddypress followed an MVC architecture. Wikipedia’s description of MVC:

Model-view-controller (MVC) … isolates business logic from the user interface, permitting one to be freely modified without affecting the other. The controller collects user input, the model manipulates application data, and the view presents results to the user …

I like the sound of “isolating business logic”. I want the end user functionality that WPMU/BP provides (“… WordPress’s usability …”), but have serious concerns about having to rely on WPMU/BP for central member management and registration, the foundation of my project. Unfortunately I can’t have one without the other.

Please don’t dismiss the criticism.

if there’s someone moaning about how any particular bit of software is not written following MVC, they have two options – write their own, or shut up.

They did. They are developing Anahita Social Engine on Joomla. I may have to check it out.

In my opinion – not aiming this at you – if there’s someone moaning about how any particular bit of software is not written following MVC, they have two options – write their own, or shut up.

BuddyPress isn’t going to be any more “patchy” than WordPress is. I’m not even sure what you are trying to imply by “patch job”, either.

If I were you I’d run not walk to the wpmu forums where they are expert at dealing with this kind of issue. Search first and don’t mention bp. Just describe your symptoms. You lost site admin status. https://mu.wordpress.org/forums/

hmm maybe i should study wordpress?

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